Comment from Theresa
Time: May 29, 2007, 11:34 am

Thank you for that post! You are absolutely right about the change that has taken place over the last few years. When I got here in 1992, there were very few immigrants to be seen in Pamplona, and it’s only been over the last 5 or 6 years that there’s been a boom of immigration. The Spanish society needs time to adapt to this, and the government needs to find a more effective strategy for dealing with unemployment and poor working conditions for these people. And on top of that, we now have islamic terrorism to worry about, which makes people even more wary of immigrants. In general, I think Spaniards are quite reasonable, tolerant people, but every country has it’s share of ignorant bigots. I hope this whole situation moves in the right direction, and that people will begin to accept that immigrants make up approximately 10 percent of the population, and that they deserve the same rights and respect as any Spanish citizen.

When I left the U.S. there was still a lot of racism going on; the Rodney King riots were fairly fresh in everyone’s minds at that time. I don’t know how much it has changed since then, but racism has always been a problem there, and it’s a tricky one to solve. I hardly think the U.S is truly the land of equal opportunities that Americans so proudly think it to be; poverty is much more common among blacks and hispanics, and they are more often accused of crimes than whites. America has had much longer to adapt to immigration than Spain, but I don’t think the result is any better. Every country needs to work on this; we have yet to understand that in spite of differences in color, culture, and language, for better or for worse, we’re all in this together.

Comment from Edith
Time: May 29, 2007, 1:45 pm

Great comments, Theresa!

Race relations were part of my anthropology curriculum in the early 1980s, but living in a plural society has brought the matter so much closer to home. The issues are not always that straightforward, and some people may simply be afraid to lose their jobs to new immigrants who will work for lower wages. like you mentioned, the events of 9/11 and 11-M have complicated matters even further – in my opinion, fearing terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism does not make you a racist. But people with a racist mind-set may certainly be more prone to confuse race, ideology and politics. And of course, true racism IS present among certain segments of the European population. The real lithmus test of it all is being black and having to experience racism first-hand, like Sonia from Britain in the ‘Racism and Grumpy Waiters’ thread.

Thinking along racial lines is deeply rooted in our European past, and notions of white supremacy helped to justify colonialism, segregation and the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Like the plantation owners of the American South, most European colonialists were also convinced that whites were superior to Africans, Asians, Polynesians and Amerindians. During the heydays of 19th-century colonialism, pseudo-scientific racial theories were well-accepted in many parts of the Western world. These ideas were also taught at school, and I’m sure some of them have survived to this very day. Some people still harbor some really weird ideas about blacks and sexuality, for instance – ideas which are unfit for print!

Even though racial mixing was more of a norm in their colonies, the Spanish and the Portuguese were far from ‘color blind’. They, too, kept slaves and subjugated indigenous populations. In the colonial era, the Spanish had a vast array of words to describe the various racial groups or ‘castas’, so race was important to them too even though the racial boundaries were not as clearly defined as in the American South. In 15th-century Spain, rulers developed the concept of ‘limpieza de sangre’ to distinguish ‘real’ Spaniards from the descendants of Jews and Arabs.

The ruling elites of Latin America are still predominantly white or almost white, and you hardly see any dark-skinned people in their telenovelas. Some of the maids show mestiza traits but a black protagonist in a telenovela – never! And of course, most of the female heroes in these shows are artificial blondes.

Ethnic groups also discriminate among themselves. Even in the Caribbean, many have internalized the notion that ‘white = bright = right’, and the upper social strata often pride themselves on their light skin. They are often the descendants of white plantation owners and domestic servants who did not have to work in the fields. Yet, some people will go to great lengths to ‘prove’ that racism does not exist in that part of the world because the Spanish and the Portuguese colonizers were not supposed to be prejudiced. If this were true, Spain would be very different from the rest of Europe indeed, and there would be no problems in Spain today!

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: May 29, 2007, 2:40 pm

Well because no one lives in a country that lacks bigotry, does that mean that no one should opine on injustices and other problematic behaviors? I wish someone with enough influence did/does that with my country. For example, after making this mistakes in the US, we could tell other countries to avoid mistakes like forced busing.

Comment from Libra
Time: May 29, 2007, 3:05 pm

We are supposed to mildly accept that being against immigration is racialism. In fact, what some people reject is a certain type of immigrant, regardless of his race.

The Costa del Sol, twenty or thirty years back, was invaded by muslims who occupied the best sites and hotels and could be found almost everywhere. Nobody dreamed of rejecting these immigrants. They were extremely wealthy, and that is what makes all the difference.

There’s no racialism in believing that your country is like your own house where you can choose your guests at will. Why do pluralists morally force all society to accept their impositions? Isn’t that as bad as racialism?

The tensions one perceives in Spain are not necessarily racial tensions (except in the minds of pluralists). The lower rungs of society quite naturally resent the competition for jobs and the lowering of salaries brought about by extremely poor and destitute immigrants. On the other end of the scale, the extremely rich may benefit by getting low paid workers, and therefore are very happy with this type of immigration, the negative consequences of which they are not obliged to suffer.

Wouldn’t it be more honest, especially taking into account that the rejection I refer to covers all races of immigrants with the only common denominator of their poverty, to leave racism out of this. Racism, like nazism is not a description but an insult.

Comment from Gary
Time: May 29, 2007, 3:21 pm

I clearly remember the first black man I saw, It would have been the late fifties, he wore a light grey suit and a trilby hat and walked down Scott Hall Road (youll know the one Ben) opposite my house. There was a massive influx of Westindians into Leeds and Chapletown in particular in the 50s/60s, this was followed bt bangladeshis in the sixties. There has been a good deal of racial tension in the area but it seems to me that it has somewhat subsided now that all races have been to school together for several generations. Thats not to say that the erea is any less dodgy, theres still drugs and prostitution and the occasional mugging. There may well be more tension between the afro carribean yout and asian youth than between any other sections of the community. Many white kids and asians too speak a kind of west indian based patois in many parts of the country. Stuff just takes time and spain is at the beginning of the process that we are still undergoing.
Racism is something that cannot be tolerated, multicultualism on the other hand may not have been the correct response - I remember working in schools in the 70s/80s that felt that they had to make a massive deal of every minor cultural difference so that for instance Rastafarianism - at best a minor sub culture - was perhaps given way more prominence than perhaps it merited. Speaking to the “elders” with my PSHED group was an experience - three guys with dreadlocks down to their waist and well stoned spent an entertaining afternoon with us. All the kids were into Bob Marley ans ‘chillin, guy’ now its Porsches and Gangsta Bling

Comment from Libra
Time: May 29, 2007, 3:30 pm

Pray, allow me another commentary.

Limpieza de sangre had nothing at all to do with with race. What the bigotry of the period rejected was heretical religions that were considered a threat to the ruling denomination. That is mainly why the greatest rejection was reserved fot the monotheistic creeds.

Another point: most of the Spanish grandee families that go back to the XVIth and XVIIth centuries are proud of their native Aztec, Mexica or Inca blood. The reason for this pride being that their ancestors married into the imperial or royal families of America. This is directly so in most of the principal ducal houses, Alburquerque, Solferino, Villahermosa, Infantado, Alba, Osuna, Abrantes, Medina de Rioseco, Medina Sidonia, Granada de Ega, etc.

Had there been extremely wealthy and socially illustrious blacks would they have not married them because of their colour? Some Aztecs were very, very black (i.e.: the dukes of Moctezuma), and we cannot forget either that it was religion not race what impeded marriages during la Reconquista. Each time the religious barrier was removed, marriages took place. This is how the Spanish monarchy and many families of the nobility descend from converted moors.

At the highest echelons of society people could choose, and when convenient they married rich ex-muslims or rich ex-jews. There are may examples, but I cannot make this comment any longer.

Comment from Edith
Time: May 29, 2007, 4:19 pm

It is easy to pay lip service to a remote Native American ancestor - even some Klansmen in the U.S. claim Native (e.g. Cherokee or Choctaw) ancestry. But the proof of the pudding is the eating: despite some notable exceptions to the rule, are indígenas and blacks treated with respect in Latin American society today?

‘Limpieza de sangre’ is a tricky concept. People do not carry religion in their genes; usually they undergo some rite de passage like baptism, circumcision or a bar/bat mitzvah to become part of their parents’ faith. Yet, the notion of ‘limpieza de sangre’ suggests that religion is somehow ‘in the blood’. Even conversion to Christianity could no longer save the Jews from persecution. Simon Wiesenthal took this concept very seriously and labeled it a new manifestation of anti-Semitism, an important moment in a long, 2000- year-old chain of events.

From now on, to be Jewish was to be forever ‘tainted’, a dangerous concept which migrated beyond Spain’s borders to become mixed up with 19th-century pseudo-scientific racism. The fact that the Jews were not a race in the first place is beside the point, what matters here is their irreversible ‘taintedness’. Of course, some people knew how to evade the law, money always works wonders… in apartheid South Africa, Japanese businessmen were given the official status of ‘honorary whites’.

Disclaimer: Wiesenthal does not accuse the Spanish Inquisition of being proto-Nazis of any kind, but he certainly debunks the belief that concepts of purity and taintedness are harmless and inoffensive.

Comment from Edith
Time: May 29, 2007, 5:04 pm

@ Gary,

I agree with you, excessive political correctness is not the answer, either. There also exists a lot of tension between ethnic and religious groups, and they too have got their share of bigots. In the Netherlands, Surinamese people of East Indian and Creole descent openly dislike each other, and there have been clashes between Moroccans and South Moluccans. Some extremist Muslims are now openly venting their hatred of Jews and Christians, i.e. Western society in general. Extremism, whether it’s political or religious, always worries me because you never know what the consequences will be. Some black groups in America (e.g. the Nation of Islam, which is led by Louis Farrakhan) are openly racist towards whites. I understand their anger but counter-racism towards Caucasians is not the answer. They are totally out of touch with mainstream Islam, which is not race-oriented. Ironically, what all these bigots are proposing is the superiority of their own group!

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: May 29, 2007, 6:22 pm

@Libra, you state “There’s no racialism in believing that your country is like your own house where you can choose your guests at will. That sounds a bit NIMBY to me.

Comment from Jon Hundt
Time: May 29, 2007, 7:37 pm

and here’s my memory, tying together England, Spain, and racism…

1974, end of the summer season in Torremolinos, we snagged a ride to London with an English guy who owned a “hot bar” in town. He spent a lot of driving time telling me how messed up America was, especially what was wrong with us and all of our racial problems. He swore on a stack of Holy Bibles that in England there were ABSOLUTELY no racial problems. And that was because - the “darkies” and “wogs” knew their place and knew better that to try to think that they could ever be English!! They were welcome to stay for a while, as long as they all understood that they were being allowed to visit and would soon go home. As long as that was understood all around - England had NO RACE PROBLEM!

At first I tried to understand what the hell he was talking about; passing Madrid I became concerned; by around San Sebastian I was just plain offended (but I still needed the ride). By the time we made Calais I just figured he was a freakin’ weirdo and tried to laff it off.

He sure enough gave me an education into English race relations; later when I worked in a factory in London I found out that his view was not unique at the time.

Comment from Gauche
Time: May 30, 2007, 11:59 am

Ben writes: “When I arrived in Spain 9 years ago there was hardly a coloured person to be seen in Madrid.”

Just so you know, “coloured person” is a term that is considered derogatory, at least in the U.S. Like the word “negro.” Both terms are considered archaic. Makes the speaker sound like someone from the Jim Crow era. Saludos.

Comment from Gauche
Time: May 30, 2007, 12:11 pm

“I think none of us is in a position to cast the first stone,” said Theresa.

Not sure I follow the logic here. Is she trying to say that all whites are racist? That all whites harbor racist thoughts? I didn’t think so. Why can’t people express their opinions and recount their experiences without it being construed as being judgmental?

There’s no need to be so defensive. There is a growing level of distrust/resentment/unease in Spain about people who aren’t Spanish, particularly those from Africa, the Middle East, Asia and South America. You can’t begun to solve the problem until you acknowledge that it exists. And there is no need to get defensive about it. Punto.

Comment from Frank
Time: May 30, 2007, 12:59 pm

[i]”Not sure I follow the logic here. Is she trying to say that all whites are racist? That all whites harbor racist thoughts? I didn’t think so. Why can’t people express their opinions and recount their experiences without it being construed as being judgmental?”[/i]

My thinking exactly. It’s been said a few times here, that we should not be judgemental, I thought the whole idea of theses threads (with “Comments written below) was to invite feedback, people’s personal views and opinions.
Also agree with the comment about “gitanos” being very much at the bottom of the pile. People have stated that immigration is a recent phenomena and time is needed to adjust, but they have been in Spain since the XV century and their lot does not seem to have changed much. I see currently less than 2% make it to university. A depressing figure.

Comment from Ben
Time: May 30, 2007, 2:23 pm

Gauche said: “Just so you know, “coloured person” is a term that is considered derogatory, at least in the U.S. Like the word “negro.” Both terms are considered archaic. Makes the speaker sound like someone from the Jim Crow era. Saludos.”

This is difficult. What term should one use these days? Maybe I have been out of an English speaking country too long, but in the UK I think it is OK to use that phrase. Any help to make my post more PC would be appreciated.

Comment from luke
Time: May 30, 2007, 3:04 pm

Just a note to help you Ben, I’ve been looking at university fellowships in New York and I found one that was only open to “people of color”. So maybe you are allowed to say that! Personally, I try not to refer to people as black or white, these are such inaccurate terms; my daugter is only 7 and she describes people in terms of age, height and skin colour: dark brown or pinkish etc.
As to Spanish attitudes, in my experience many Spanish people do not have a taboo about making generalised complaints against certain races. I hope this isn’t a generalised complaint against the Spanish!

Comment from luke
Time: May 30, 2007, 3:23 pm

Having spent much time in Madrid over the last 11 years, I have noticed attitudes to me, as a foreigner, getting worse. With mass immigration people are getting nervous the changes. Recently my little daughter and baby son were happily playing in a playground and a little Spanish girl wanted to play with them. But she was whisked away by her grandmother, who told her that they had to leave. They didn’t leave and the girl wasn’t allowed near my kids. My kids are clean, pretty and kind but they don’t speak Spanish very well. Normally I expect Spanish women to playfully grab their cheeks and coo at them. Is something changing? I hear Spainards complaining about the Ukrainians, maybe they think I and my family could be Ukrainian or maybe, to some, any foreigner is a suspect?

Comment from Frank
Time: May 30, 2007, 3:34 pm

“This is difficult. What term should one use these days? Maybe I have been out of an English speaking country too long, but in the UK I think it is OK to use that phrase.? ”

As one still here, Ben, I certainly don´t have a problem with the phrase, we´re fast running out of phrases to use! To me, it´s a complete nonsense, there´s nothing remotely racist about the phrase, I´d have no objections to be referred to as a “white person”.

Comment from Carl
Time: May 30, 2007, 3:48 pm

Ben, It is unfortunate that one has to be so PC, that even to describe the situation people may be offended. I think that when a society has “arrived”, more or less, to not be so obsessed with race, one indicator will be people will be able to talk about race openly, about the differences in people, stereotypes, and even kid and joke with each other about race.

I remember on “The Howard Stern Show” (this was a kind of talk radio show / with a famous “Shock Jock” which is not on the air anymore), They did this all the time. Howard is Jewish, Robin, his side kick was black, Gary the producer - Italian, Stuttering John - Puerto Rican. It was refreshing how unconcerned - but aware they were about race. They would kid each other all the time.

Comment from Theresa
Time: May 30, 2007, 4:03 pm

Gauche, what I meant by saying that none of us should not throw the first stone is that none of our countries is free of racism. I have come across blog after blog where people are all too keen to generalize about Spain, calling it a racist country and that Spaniards are rude. I have found more negative things written about Spain than positive things, and I think this generates a skewed image of Spanish society. Often, these things are written by people who have spent little time here, and many don’t even speak Spanish. How can you form a reasonable idea of what a country is like if you haven’t spent some time in it? I’m not saying we shouldn’t call attention to racist incidents, and I never said that people shouldn’t have an opinion on this subject. What upsets me is this generalization that’s going on; I know perfectly well that racism exists in Spain, and I hope in the future this will change, but I do think people criticize other cultures too easily and lump everyone into the same boat. How would you feel if we were all to sit around saying your country is racist? And would that solve anything? By all means write about these incidents, but make it clear that they are just that - incidents. You can’t take a handful of situations and apply them to a society as a whole.

Comment from Frank
Time: May 30, 2007, 6:13 pm

“I have come across blog after blog where people are all too keen to generalize about Spain, calling it a racist country and that Spaniards are rude. I have found more negative things written about Spain than positive things, and I think this generates a skewed image of Spanish society.”

You seem to be entitled to your opinion of Spain, but object to other people writing about Spain, whose opinion does not agree with yours. You assume they haven’t lived in Spain long, don’t speak Spanish etc, simply because they have a different viewpoint to yours. Are all these people writing these negative blogs you are on about, exaggerating? What would be the point? You tell it as you see it, why shouldn’t other people?
I must say in other forums I visit, it’s the complete opposite, they won’t have a bad word said about Spain, they’re all still wearing the rose tinted glasses. Anyone that says anything negative about Spain is jumped on from a great height.

Comment from The Assimilated Negro
Time: May 30, 2007, 10:00 pm

First, let me say that I enjoy NotesFromSpain.com and that I admire the work that Ben and Marina are doing to highlight all the positive and interesting aspects of Spain and Spanish culture and language. You guys rock!

That said, I’ve noticed that the senstitivites of Ben and some of the other regular readers are set to high alert whenever anyone makes a comment that could be viewed as “negative” about Spain. (I’m a longtime reader of this blog so I’m not referring solely to this particular post.) Instead of rolling with the punches, as weak as those punches may be, some posters overreact and start talking about how Spain is not being given a fair shake, how the U.S. and the U.K. are more f+*!ed up than Spain, how the critics don’t understand Spain because they don’t live there, don’t speak the language, etc.

Theresa, sorry to single you out chica, but I’ve got to agree with Gauche (love that nick, by the way) and Frank, who hits the nail on the head when he talks about the wearing of rose-colored glasses. Theresa, the contradictions in your position confused me. You make one sweeping generalization after another and then don’t like it when you perceive others are doing the same. But you know what? That’s ok. To quote that grand philosopher of the 1990s, “Can’t we all just get along?”

I was going to stay on the sidelines and not say anything but I couldn’t hold out any longer! I don’t like being the spokesman for my race but when discussions like this emerge and I’m a witness to the proceedings, I feel compelled to put in my 2 centavos. Here are my bonafides: I am a black American who has lived in Madrid for two years. I speak Spanish and work with Spaniards. I made the choice to move to Spain two years ago because I am in love with this country that I find so immensely fascinating. And just like any intense relationship, there are aspects that aren’t so good. I’ve experienced it firsthand and guess what? I go on loving this country even though it doesn’t love me back. (Gosh, all that rambling just to make one comment. But I mention my personal details to stave off future comments from posters that I’m some clueless gringo who just doesn’t “get” Spain.)

As the Assimilated Negro, I’d also like to make another comment. People talk a lot these days about political correctness and how some people have gone way over board with redefining the English language, purging certain words, creating new euphemisms, etc. In some cases, that is true. But language is culture and in the culture of the U.S., the term “colored people” is offensive because of the history of the U.S. “Colored person” along with “negro” are vestiges of a painful time in U.S. history. For that reason, they have fallen into disuse. [Sidebar: “person of color” is not considered offensive because it appears to be a post-1960s/post-Civil Rights Era expression that seems to have emerged in the 1990s as a way to appear inclusive when it came to describing black, latino, asian, native american, etc. in one general term. However, it is an expression that some view as kind of silly because it seems stilted.]

The expression “colored people” may be inoffensive in other English-speaking countries but because NotesFromSpain is reaching a global audience, I think Ben should err on the side of caution and use more neutral, more specific terms like “black, white, asian, latino, southeast asian, hispanic, etc.”.

For example, consider the word “paki.” That is a word that has no currency in the U.S. and would probably be met with a shrug if a person used it in describing a Southeast Asian in the U.S. But that same word, used in London, could start a bar fight. However, any reasonable and intelligent person, once informed that that word is a huge insult in another part of the world, would more than likely never use the word again.

OK. ‘Nuff said. Class dismissed.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/colored
http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/COLOREDPERSON
http://sedition.com/ddx/w/1668.html

Comment from Frank
Time: May 31, 2007, 9:04 am

Agree with most of above, especially the “sensitviities” and the use of “negatives”. As I said in my last post, I used to frequent a mainly ex brit populated forum , and the UK had given these people an excellent living, a chance to make lots of money to enable them to buy large properties in Spain, and you might think they’d be a little bit grateful for that. But not a bit of it! They haven’t a good word to say about the UK, and if anyone dares to write a slight negative about Spain, they get really upset. Any TV programme, article in the UK paper, about Spain, is slated. It’s untrue, exaggerated etc, etc. Recently there was a post about Brits renting out properties illegally (they are almost all illegal, none are registered), and the Telegraph, a respectable paper here, printed a story about someone being fined a lot of money in Alicante(?), and the opinion in the forum was that the paper had made the story up, invented the names of the people fined, ie it was the usual British press having a down on Spain. You’d have thought they had turned their backs on UK all together, but not quite, they still expect, and get, their winter fuel allowance, and complain like mad when flights to UK go up in price! I’m glad they they are all blissfully happy in Spain, just wish they’d have a more balanced view of life.

Comment from marg
Time: May 31, 2007, 12:25 pm

Theresa: “Racism, like nazism is not a description but an insult.”

And it’s an insult for a reason!

Comment from Gregory
Time: June 1, 2007, 4:17 am

I find it interesting that The Assimilated Negro advises Ben to “use more neutral … terms” when referring to the races ostensibly so as not of offend after using the offending and not so neutral “f” word. I suspect many people of all races who understand English might be offended at the use of such an ugly word.

Comment from Edith
Time: June 1, 2007, 8:23 am

I’m not offended by the f-word at all, however the word ’squaw’ (which originally refers to a woman’s genitals) bothers me hugely because it’s a true racial epithet, meant to degrade and to dehumanize. Four-letter words are vulgar, but why feel personally offended by them?

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: June 1, 2007, 11:41 am

If only using curse words were the worse issue at hand.

Comment from Edith
Time: June 1, 2007, 3:57 pm

Speaking of curse words, the Spanish seem to have a much more relaxed and less puritan attitude towards them: just look at the way ‘¡coño!’ is used in conversational Spanish.

Comment from Gregory
Time: June 1, 2007, 4:53 pm

Edith and ValenciaSon make good points and I did stray from the topic.

Comment from María Madrid
Time: June 2, 2007, 10:53 pm

Frank said:

“People have stated that immigration is a recent phenomena and time is needed to adjust, but they have been in Spain since the XV century and their lot does not seem to have changed much.”

May I ask what immigrants from the XV century you’re referring to?

FYI, thousands of Spaniards emigrated to Europe in the 50’s 60’s and 70’s, (not to mention political refugees) so I find it hard to understand how a country where many of its inhabitants had to leave to find a better life would be appealling for immigrants from other countries… for 5 hundred years!!

Comment from Frank
Time: June 3, 2007, 2:32 pm

“May I ask what immigrants from the XV century you’re referring to?”

Certainly you can ask, the line above the text you quoted from me, reveals all.

“Also agree with the comment about “gitanos” being very much at the bottom of the pile. People have stated that immigration is a recent phenomena and time is needed to adjust, but they have been in Spain since the XV century”

Comment from Frank
Time: June 3, 2007, 2:55 pm

“FYI, thousands of Spaniards emigrated to Europe in the 50’s 60’s and 70’s, (not to mention political refugees) so I find it hard to understand how a country where many of its inhabitants had to leave to find a better life would be appealling for immigrants from other countries… for 5 hundred years!!”

Not really sure what you are trying to say here. (thousands of Spaniards emigrated to Europe )
However, in the 50’s, 60’s etc, Spain was relatively poor, and very large families were the norm (indeed they had been encouraged by Franco, prizes for the largest families). However, since then, Spain has taken off, and that coupled with the fact that Spain has had one of the lowest birth rates in the world, means that immigration, whilst not to everyone’s taste, is essential if Spain is to continue at the current rate. Whilst you apparently find it hard to believe, Spain is desperate for immigration to continue. (along with most leading European countries)

“Spain’s EUR 743 billion economy increasingly relies on an influx of workers and taxpayers from abroad to sustain growth – and do the jobs Spaniards don’t want to do”

“Most European countries, with their aging and war-depleted populations, need immigrant workers. But politicians who run against them win or come close to winning elections. They want foreigners, strangers, people with darker skin no more than we do. They accept them grudgingly and demean them whenever possible.
However, there is one notable exception to this rule. In Spain, the welcome mat is out for immigrants. Eleven percent of the people living there are immigrants, “

Comment from Theresa
Time: June 4, 2007, 5:23 pm

I am not saying everyone is negative about Spain, just that there’s a lot of it going around. If you live here and have experienced racism first hand, be my guest, rant about it. I never said Spain was perfect, I’ve lived here for over 14 years and have seen both the good and the bad of this country. I do think the good outweighs the bad, however, and that Spain is not nearly as racist as the U.S. (I lived there until I was 23, so I know what I’m talking about). So, should I just sit here while you all rip the Spanish apart? There don’t seem to be too many around this blog to defend themselves.

Comment from María Madrid
Time: June 4, 2007, 6:16 pm

Frank:

Gypsies, yes that’s a very special case, to start with they didn’t come from one specific country, they were nomads and it’s true they have faced huge difficulties, not just here but in all European countries where they settled. Things are slowly changing but it’s true it still is a huge issue.

I asked you because in another place on this very same forum you claimed immigration problems started in 711, when arabs came to Spain. Invasion and war cannot be considered immigration nor possibly be welcomed anywhere.

You claim Spain has had problems with immigration for ages and that’s just not the case, since the migration flow has traditionally been outbound. Spain has been a country of emigrants until very recently, where thousands and thousands of Spanish emigrated to other European countries. In the 60’s the main income of foreign exchange came from Spanish emigrants in Europe sending money to their families who stayed here, just like it is now in countries like Ecuador.

What has Franco’s policies for large families to do with what I asked you, anyway?

Comment from Frank
Time: June 4, 2007, 10:49 pm

“What has Franco’s policies for large families to do with what I asked you, anyway?”

If you have problems working that out, and you seem to, same as you had problems working out who had been in Spain since the XV century, when it was all in the same paragraph, I think I’ll leave it there. I was almost tempted to ask why you think gypsies should be treated as they have been just because “they didn’t come from one specific country!

Comment from Theresa
Time: June 5, 2007, 10:59 am

I think I understand what María is trying to say; the gypsy situation and the recent influx of immigrants are two different problems. Neither of these groups deserve to be treated badly, and something needs to be done to better the conditions for all the minorities living in Spain, but I think the solution will be easier for the recent immigrants than for the gypsies. Most immigrants that come to Spain want to become part of Spanish society, they want to work and be accepted by the majority. The gypsies, on the other hand are a very close-knit community, with their own laws and customs which they are reluctant to change. This, in part, is a defence mechanism due to the treatment they have received, and the whole thing ends up being a vicious cycle of exclusion and auto exclusion, which makes it even harder to deal with the problem. I am not justifying in any way the deplorable treatment the gypsies receive, but I think it will take much longer to integrate them into Spanish society than to integrate the immigrants that have recently arrived to Spain.

Also, there have always been immigrants in Spain, but recently there has been a boom of immigration, and this inevitably leads to more social tension. When I came here in 1992, there wasn’t a black person to be found in Pamplona, there were no South Americans, no Eastern Europeans, there were virtually no minorities at all. Now there is a large immigrant population, and it will take time for people to adapt to that, even though that’s no excuse for racist behavior. Most of the people I know are quite accepting of foreigners, and I haven’t seen any real racist behavior around here. That’s not to say it doesn’t exist, but I think the majority is not racist, it’s just a few rotten apples that spoil the whole barrel. In any case, the government needs to take a hand in this, and educate society about immigration and the need for tolerance. In schools there are now a lot of educational campaigns to sensitize kids about this issue, but this has begun only recently; I hope it will lead to a society that’s mostly free of racism, and maybe one day racism will only exist in history books

Comment from Frank
Time: June 5, 2007, 6:59 pm

“Most immigrants that come to Spain want to become part of Spanish society, they want to work and be accepted by the majority. The gypsies, on the other hand are a very close-knit community, with their own laws and customs which they are reluctant to change.”

I’d like to think you are right, Theresa, but my only experience is of UK, and there I find that most immigrants are reluctant to change. Without doubt some do, but there are complete areas, almost towns, of immigrants living in their own areas, with their own shops, schools, mosques etc. Places where there have been racial riots, places where it is extremely dangerous for whites to enter. Far from integrating, they also seem to want to adopt Sharia Law. Eastern Europeans, especially Poles, who have not been here that long, are already taking over large areas of many towns. So really, I’d be surprised if the immigrants to Spain would behave any differently. Many will be merely using Spain as a stepping off point, once they have European citizenship, they are free to travel to anywhere in Europe, and it’s predicted a lot will leave to find countries that offer better pickings for immigrants like Sweden, UK etc.
“Our European neighbours are now worried that legalised illegal immigrants will use their new papers, procured in Spain, to enter wealthier EU nations and then never leave.”

Comment from Carl
Time: June 6, 2007, 1:51 am

My opinion as an American that has been going back and forth between Spain and California since 1983 is that the Spanish are a people that love stereotypes, I think maybe more so than others. Sometimes these stereotypes are pretty nasty. And yes, they do come off as racist. It is simple ignorance that will change with time.

I disagree that the U.S. is more racist than Spain. I would say that all people are basically the same (all are racist). The one thing I have noticed in Europe, as Frank has mentioned, is that the newcomers have no common identity to cling to. In contrast, I believe we are doing a pretty good job (with all our flaws, etc.) in the U.S. of creating “Americans” out of immigrants - since the whole country is a country of immigrants, and everyone knows it.

Comment from María Madrid
Time: June 7, 2007, 11:35 pm

Comment from Frank :

If you have problems working that out, and you seem to, same as you had problems working out who had been in Spain since the XV century, when it was all in the same paragraph, I think I’ll leave it there. I was almost tempted to ask why you think gypsies should be treated as they have been just because “they didn’t come from one specific country!

English is certainly not my mother tongue, but I don’t think it is as bad as to deliver a completely different message to what I intended to say. Just some clarification:

I expected an answer, this is just a debate so I was suprised to detect such aggresiveness in your reply. I thought I was allowed to disagree without being told off. Anyway,

1. I don’t have problems working anything out. I asked you for an explanation, maybe it was too much to ask how you can equal invasion and war with immigration.

2. No, I never said gypsies are to be treated differently, reread, please.

2. I think it’s you who have a very limited knowledge on Spanish history. Maybe you have no idea that 4 million Spaniards emigrated from Spain from 1959 to 1973 mainly to central European countries. That was more than 10% of the Spanish population. And it wasn’t something new, as many thousands had previously emigrated in the first half of the 20th century mainly to Southamerica… I dare say all this makes clear that Spain wasn’t receiving immigrants, the migration movement was just the other way. So what immigrants have we having problems with for ages? Either explain what you mean or admit you maybe got the wrong data, but repeating again that immigrants have been here since the XV century is pure nonsense.

FYI, not only am I perfectly aware of who was here in the 15th century (let me remind you that in the other thread you said immigration problems started in 711). I know who was here then, who they were and why they were here. Immigration has nothing to do with it, just as slave trade or white slave trade nowadays are another couple of completely inappropriate comparisons.

Pingback from South of Watford on Racism in Spain - Notes from Spain: Travel, Living in Spain, Podcasts, Forum and Photos
Time: June 11, 2007, 10:04 am

[…] was thinking of participating in the debate on racism in Spain anyway, but with Ben’s permission I’ll turn my comments into a longer post. I have been in […]

Comment from Theresa
Time: June 14, 2007, 6:32 pm

Carl: Things must have changed a awful lot since I was in the U.S, because when I left things were still pretty tense (The Rodney King riots happened just before I came here). About “creating” Americans out of immigrants, I think that’s an unfortunate term; it sounds like you are talking about changing them because they are not acceptable the way they are. Of course, that’s better than what happened to native Americans, who just got pushed off to their reservations. I just don’t buy it, I think racism still exists in the U.S, it’s just not as obvious as before. Notice I am not saying Americans are racist, I am sure a lot aren’t, but in spite of affirmative action policies, oportunities are still not equal for minorities. After all, Barack Obama is the only black person in the Senate at present, which is hardly a proportional representation of the black population. it would be great to see him as President, because that would indicate that a real change has been made in people’s minds, not only in the law.

In any case, I’ve gone off on a tangent, this was supposed to be about racism in Spain. I just think you can’t compare the U.S. to Spain, because while racism is present in both, there are fewer laws favoring immigrants here, which is something that should change. However, I believe education can do more to change people’s attitudes than any law can; it will take time, but if the government takes this issue seriously, and educates the population, I am optimistic that racism will eventually be erradicated.

Comment from Carl
Time: June 25, 2007, 11:09 pm

Oops, forgot to check back over here.. My term “creating Americans” merely meant that traditionally immigrants have assimilated into American society more easily than they do now in European society. And I do believe that this was a good thing. I also believe that as time moves on, Europe and America become more and more alike due to mass movements of people and mass movements of ideas. Even in the U.S. it is more likely today that new immigrants retain their identities – like they do in Europe - even to the point of not learning English. This did not happen in the past.

And regarding our not having black members of the Senate. Of course, there is always room for improvement, but there are many, many prominent people of color in positions of power in the U.S. One just visited Madrid not too long ago – the Secretary of State.

By the way, how many Gitanos are in the Congreso?

Comment from frances bartlett
Time: April 7, 2008, 12:24 am

Thank you for all this info. It is comforting to know we are not the only ones suffering racism in spain from people with a deluded sense of superiority above others. The Spanish only need look at their past history to see where they come from. It’s ironic that they should point the finger. My granddaughter is going to school here only because the schools in London are over subscribed. Yes, it’s like going back 50 years in time. I have been here nearly a year and still can’t get used to it. Racism needs to be stamped out. There is no place for it in the 21st century.

Comment from luke
Time: April 7, 2008, 9:07 am

@frances bartlett
I’m thinking of living in Spain with children (who are half Spanish) and I’m disturbed by your post. Can you expand? Where are you in Spain? What kind of racism is your grandchild having to put up with? What level of school is it occuring in? etc