Comment from Mrmark
Time: April 28, 2008, 10:31 am

Ben, would you be able to get some feedback from Eastern European or Latin American families who have settled in Spain (there have been a huge number of these in the last few years)? It’d be interesting to hear their point of view. The few Latin Americans I met in my time in Madrid found it hard to adjust to a different cultural setting, although they appreciated the oportunity to get work. I wish I had kept in contact with the Ukrainian woman I met on a Spanish course in Valencia. She had moved there with her 2 children and claimed it was the best thing she’d done in her life. Not quite the same situation as you’re describing here, as she had a Spanish boyfriend, but it would have been illuminating to have heard her feedback.

Comment from Ben
Time: April 28, 2008, 10:37 am

You are right Mark, that would be interesting. The South American immigration is of course very different. Most Western Europeans, like us Brits, move here for pleasure, or seeking a better lifestyle, whereas of course most South Americans and Eastern Europeans move here for economic reasons.

This means they are prepared to do far more basic and often unpleasant work than your average British mother or father. Also though it is worth noting that a lot of South American women or men will move here alone, leaving kids at home with grandparents, and only bring the rest of the family over once they are very very well established.

Comment from bill
Time: April 28, 2008, 1:04 pm

Ben - I don’t think the comment you quoted above is particularly relevant to the forum discussion. I think the forum discussion was specifically about moving your family to Spain without any having any work lined up, without speaking Spanish, and trying to support your family on Spanish wages/working hours.

However the quote in the article seems to be from someone who has brought their family to Spain for a fixed period of about 5 years. This is significantly easier than attempting to move your family over permanently.

But perhaps more significantly, the fact that they are from the US and that it is for a fixed period makes me suspect that the husband was transferred to Spain with his company. Again this is much, much easier. Expat families get transferred all over the world to much more “difficult” countries than Spain without much of a problem - mainly because they are looked after by their company, and don’t have to integrate to the same extent. Doing it on your own is a completely different matter.

Comment from Ben
Time: April 28, 2008, 1:29 pm

@Bill - that’s why I think it is connected to the forum discussion! Here is someone (and I think it was actually she who was transferred, not the husband) who has been brought over here with a job set up, and she still finds it hard! So yes, doing it on your own with a family in tow must be really really difficult!

Comment from Jill (la vieja de la manga)
Time: April 28, 2008, 1:43 pm

Regrets Ben but I agree with Bill: “I don’t think the comment you quoted above is particularly relevant to the forum discussion”

This extract from yesterday’s Telegraph I could be relevant

“They say that the average stay of les Anglais who attempt to make a life for themselves in the Limousin is just over two years.

Part of the problem may be that unexpected gulf between the France that people remember from their summer holidays - bathed in wine and sunshine, with steaming bowls of moules marinières eaten al fresco - and the France they discover when they actually come here to live. It could be that, here in the Limousin, the winters are harsher than British ones, or that learning French turns out to be just as hard, for anyone greying at the temples, as learning Chinese. But I’m afraid the truth is more prosaic than that. Most would-be expats quit their French dream for one simple reason: the money has run out. We have certainly been tightening our belts recently as sterling continues its inexorable slide against the euro.

I mention all this because my advice to anyone planning to move to rural France used to be: learn French. Whereas now it is: do your sums. All too often, the story is the same: English couple thinks “Where would we rather be?”, sells house in Blighty, buys a cheaper French one, and plans to live on the remaining capital while finding work in France. Unfortunately, this is about as easy as finding smoked fish in outer space. “

Comment from Skip
Time: April 28, 2008, 1:58 pm

Who cares if it is relevent… I find it facinating discussion… Being an American, The hurdle seems that much higher than moving from England. At least Spain is part of the EU - moving around is easier. What kind of tax implications are there for EU citizens? There are considerable Tax implications for US citizens. I think it really boils down to “what you make of it”. I have a buddy who moved from Sweden to Spain for 1 yr, but couldn’t wait to leave… but I doubt he really made the most out of it. I’d love to move to spain and try it out for a while (but I could never convince the wife). I think it is some good advice to prepare well - maybe not sell the home.

cheers
-Skip

Comment from Mrmark
Time: April 28, 2008, 2:21 pm

Jill quoted <>
I’ve known the odd person who’ve moved to Paris and gotten work. I wonder if this is the crux of the issue. UK expats seeking a better quality of life move to rural or beach areas (in France or Spain) and then wonder why work is hard to come by. Of course the initial cost of moving is so much higher in Paris or Madrid, so you can understand why many people choose the other locations, forgetting that jobs will be so much more difficult to obtain.

Comment from Mrmark
Time: April 28, 2008, 2:22 pm

The quote I forgot to repeat ” nd plans to live on the remaining capital while finding work in France. Unfortunately, this is about as easy as finding smoked fish in outer space.”

Comment from Moscow
Time: April 28, 2008, 3:12 pm

Since someone mentioned the Eastern European front, I thought I might be able to offer some help. Firstly, I would like to say that it is very different to come to a country on a return ticket and for a fixed length of time than to come on your own to stay long-term, i.e. more than 3-5 years. I believe I am very different from those ex-pats who have come to Russia sent by their companies knowing beforehand that they won’t be staying that long. Many of their trivial and not so trivial problems are solved by the companies themselves. I am sure that if you come on your own without further help, even such an easy country as Spain can be tricky. But I agree with a comment made before, multinational companies send their employees with their families to such far-flung places like SA, Thailand, China, Brazil and Russia. All of them, much more difficult to adjust to than Spain - for the ordinary Westerner - but most seem to adapt with relative ease. Otherwise nobody would go. Wouldn’t they? But personal attitude is also important. It think it doesn’t help if you are not the one sent out, but are just accompanying your husband or wife. You might end up in a place you might not even particularly like. The lady in the comment says she speaks Spanish - there are vast differences in the level people speak a language. From beginner level to native, there is a huge scope for individual perceptions of one’s own abilities. I’d like to know how good her Spanish really is.

My wife is Russian. The first time she came to Spain on a holiday she was smitten by the country - the sun, the happiness of the people, the lifestyle - all very much in contrast to her native Russia. But now that she has been to Spain many times, she realises that living there would not be the same as going on holiday. Unless you speak perfect Spanish you are unlikely to make many ‘native’ friends. Spanish doctors have a different approach to curing&care than their Russian colleagues. Once more I had it thrown to my face that one’s cultural background pre-determines how we appreciate reality. I am not enthusiastic about Russian doctors and hospitals, to say the least. My wife is of a different opinion, and she is equally unenthusiastic about Spanish doctors. A friend - Russian friend - of my wife has recently moved to Valencia with her daughter. As her husband happens to be a well-off German exec who works in Moscow and pendles between Spain and Russia, her experience and perspective differs acutely from that of East European “Gastarbeiter”. She complains about the lack of facilities for children, and the Spanish habit of standing on the middle of the pavement chatting away and not letting anyone through, even when someone is trying to walk by with a small child by the hand.

Comment from luke
Time: April 28, 2008, 3:15 pm

Can I ask anyone who’s experienced moving kids from London to Madrid:
Are the state secondary schools better in Madrid?

Also, I feel as if Madrid has less violent crime on the streets than London. Is this true?? My brother-in-law went to prison in the 80s for mugging someone on the metro with a knife and I know there are bad areas of Madrid but generally there is a less menacing atmosphere there.

Comment from bill
Time: April 28, 2008, 4:41 pm

Luke - I don’t have kids but I have a few Spanish friends who have been through the state education system, and I know one state school teacher here as well, and they all say the same things you hear in England: overcrowded classrooms, poorly behaved kids, dumbing down of subjects, etc, etc. Unfortunately there are very few people who have experienced both systems and would therefore be able to give a balanced opinion. The only English person I know here with kids says he will send them to a private school (apparently they are not as prohibitively expensive as they are in the UK)

Madrid appears safer to me as well - but then again I don’t go to the dodgy areas. I think this is partly because in Madrid there are so many more eyes on the streets - with so many people around it is harder to assault someone. OTOH the consierge in our block of flats was assaulted a couple of months ago when taking the bins out, and last year a youth was kicked to death by a group of neo-Nazis just a few hundred yards down the road from our flat. This last incident made the national news headlines so from that I guess you can assume it is not a common occurence.

Generally I think that if I have kids they will get a better education in Madrid simply because, all things being equal, they will at least be bilingual. However if you bring over older children, unless they are already bilingual, it will be harder for them to develop sufficient language skills for following the lessons and integrating in general.

Comment from Cyril
Time: April 28, 2008, 5:19 pm

It indeed depends on the family and where you are moving to.
But in general when a family has a fixed income it is pretty easy to get use to the differences. Spain is a country which everyone seems to like. The food, the people and the lifestyle. It has a lot of variation. From Barcelona to the countryside, from the dry south with its beautiful beaches and the green north.

Many people have moved to Spain to search for a job on arrival. Many have succeed and I think a lot have turned back to their country of origen. I believe the once who have stayed have once thing in common: persistence, flexibility and passion for living in Spain.

Comment from luke
Time: April 28, 2008, 5:22 pm

Wow Bill, thanks for so much for the info!

I’d like to try and get statistics, even though I know people don’t report most crimes and education figures are normally manipulated. Although I know people in Madrid it’s very hard to get a balanced view relative to London.
Education and crime are pretty major factors for me when I consider moving to Madrid, since, of course, my children’s happiness and safety come first.

They aren’t bilingual but since they are half Spanish, they know a bit of the language (my wife speaks to them in Spanish). I guess that it would be worth certain sacrifices for them to become bilingual.

Comment from Pepino
Time: April 28, 2008, 6:34 pm

Regarding Bill´s friend who´s planning to send his children to a private Spanish school, I have a friend who was until recently a teacher in a private school here in Barcelona, and he was quite clear in saying that the general quality is poor and probably no better than a Spanish state school. The particular school in question had a lot of children belonging to rich locals (footballers, I think he mentioned) who thought they were giving their kids a great education simply because they were paying. He told me this as an off the cuff comment during a regular conversation, and we didn´t go into any depth, so it maybe that he didn´t give the whole picture, but I do remember the comment stuck in my mind. I´ve not got kids so it´s not something I would´ve grilled him about deeper.

Comment from luke
Time: April 28, 2008, 6:57 pm

Looking back at my typos and bad punctuation, I think I need a bit of education myself!

Comment from Margot
Time: April 28, 2008, 8:24 pm

Considering this from afar - I’m continually reminded of both Ben’s autobiographical account in “Errant in Iberia” as well as of some of the stories in Giles Tremletts (the Guardian correspondant) “Ghosts of Spain”.
Through both accounts one hears the continual refrain of “enchufe” and its integral role in all aspects of sucessfully negotiating Spanish life.

Somehow i intuit that one is destined to forever remain an outsider if not at least somewhat integrated through becoming part of a Spanish family. Not that that, in itself, guarantees happiness - but without “your Spanish family” to both back you up and “take you in” it seems the formidable hurdles and barriers confronting an ex-pat guiri - become far less surmountable.

Don’t wish to sound unduly pessimistic - but that’s my “inner-Cassandra” voicing her intuition.

Comment from AndrewW
Time: April 29, 2008, 8:21 am

The first time I came to Spain was to live in Madrid for 10 months working. I wasn’t already “wooed” by the sun/sea of the South/East. I had no idea what it was going to be like.

But after 8 months I can say I would like to live here. I’m 20, have no ties, and think I would be able to get a job once I graduate. Sure, I would have to work hard at improving my Spanish (and getting rid of that typical Brit stereotype they have of us), but that would be worth it not to live in England.

I’ve seen/experienced alot of the things people complain about - but it’s the same in any country. I could draw up a huge list about England..

Sure people stand in the middle of the street and talk. Atleast they are outside! Atleast they are not at home behind their closed doors worried what thug might attack them today…

Comment from soy pescador
Time: April 29, 2008, 11:09 am

I think the before you make the big move and sell up everything you own you need to look at why you really want to leave your country. Is it really because of lifestyle , crime , weather etc.
I made the big move 5 years ago from South Africa , sold my house , left behind family and more. I did this for personal reasons and not for a better lifestyle , for me my lifestyle was great having lived in Sunny Cape Town next to the beach . I was not leaving because of the crime , I was not leaving because of unemployment etc. No, I was leaving because I wanted a change maybe a challange in life. (personal)
I met my Spanish , wife in the UK and from there we both decided to move to Spain. We however had an advantage over many others We had a family and enchufe on our side. My wife being native also made it a lot easier. However , we have now been in Spain almost 2 years and I still find it difficult to adjust to many things. For those who are thinking about packing up and moving with or without a family do some serious mind searching and ask yourself why you are really leaving home. As someone else mentioned , that holiday feeling only lasts so long before the harsh reality settles in. If you are coming to spain without a job lined up DON’T. If you are looking at opening a business do some homework and recon before hand. Without money or a steady income life in Spain will only become a strain.

Comment from Ben
Time: April 29, 2008, 11:28 am

@Luke - Madrid definitely seems safer than London - we don’t have too many random shooting incidents compared to London for example, and people are free to look around on the Metro without fear of accidentally staring at the wrong sort of nutcase. Little things like that make a difference! Of course your kids are still likely to go out and get drunk/take drugs if they fall in with the wrong sort of teenage crowd, and Madrid does have an increasing feeling of urban hostility at times, but nothing like my experience of living in Hackney and Brixton many years ago.

Comment from Mrmark
Time: April 29, 2008, 12:02 pm

You lived in Hackney and Brixton Ben? Surprised you didn’t move to Moss Side Manchester after that! I never thought Brixton was that bad myself (I lived a little while in Stockwell), but I’ve heard a lot of dodgy things about Hackney. Perhaps (if they still exist) you can compile a “bad barrio” list on Madrid?

Comment from marc
Time: April 29, 2008, 3:19 pm

I don’t understand the initial comment the writer when she makes mention of Spain’s “mañana attitude”. I have never found the Spanish to be procrastinators, at least no more so then the French or Dutch or British. An American prejudice of Mexicans dumped indiscriminately on wrong continent?

Comment from Ben
Time: April 29, 2008, 4:04 pm

@Mrmark - I’m not sure about the ‘bad barrios’ of Madrid. People moan about Vallecas but I thought it was pretty nice! Then again, after Hackney…

@marc - yes, it drives me mad when people mention the ‘mañana’ thing, as it really does not exist any more, not here in Madrid at least.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: April 29, 2008, 4:51 pm

Just looking at the changes and the pace of change taking place in Spain, how can anyone characterize Spain as a country of procrastinators just because they encounter a few along the way. I could apply that same logic to every country if that were the case.

Comment from luke
Time: April 29, 2008, 9:10 pm

@Ben. Yeah you don’t want your kids to get into bad crowds. Both of my brothers-in-law got into gangs in Madrid, one ended up on heroin, going to prison and commiting suicide and the other took so many drugs that he’s now in a mental hospital with chronic schizophrenia. I think there was a hopelessness in parts of Madrid during the 70s and 80s which led to many people taking heroin. Now there is employment and more optimism, who knows what is around the corner…

Comment from moscow
Time: April 30, 2008, 6:23 am

@Ben,
Thank you very much for your comment about the ‘magnana’ attitude. I have lived in 3 countries outside Spain: the UK, Germany and Russia. I have to admit to a certain unease when I hear or read comments like the one above about “magnana”. Granted, Spaniards are, in general, more relaxed than Germans. They have a slightly different attitude what ‘time’ is concerned from that of Northern Europeans. However, I find it always astonishing how some people’s preconceptions seem to preclude their capacity to analize reality with objectivity. It is as if what they observe does not become truly internalized unless it conforms to prejudice. Thus, they even will look out for the bits of reality that confirm previously and deeply set believes. People are conservative. They don’t want anything to alter perceived wisdoms. That would generate instability. Insecurity. Most people prefer to have a firm set of believes that will remain as a sort of anchor throughout their lives. That American woman can’t wait for the day when she will be safely back home in the USA - possibly tucked away in bed - and in surroundings she feels much more comfortable with. And who can blame her?

Comment from Ben
Time: April 30, 2008, 7:57 am

@wow, Luke, what terrible bad luck. I think things are indeed better these days…

Comment from Parubin
Time: April 30, 2008, 10:55 am

We all know that Spaniards are lazy unreliable procrastinators who like to throw down goats from bell-towers when we wake from our long siestas, just as Brits are these tattoo-covered drunken teethless thugs dressed up in footy shirts and Americans are fat and ignorant people with no sense of style who carry a gun in one hand, the Bible in the other and a hot-dog in between. French are not too keen of daily showers and leave the garbage all week long in the streets, and Italians…

Aaahhh… the good old prejudices and stereotypes, we would be lost in this world without them!!!

Comment from Tom C.
Time: May 11, 2008, 10:57 pm

@Parubin, How insulting! If I wasn’t eating this hot dog I’d shoot you and then beat you sensless with my bible!