Two things happened recently to make me start thnking about Spain and the love of all things new.
Firstly, I was going over past comments recently, and came across this, from Bill:
“The contemporary Spanish like to look forward, not backward. They like to live in brand new flats, drive brand new cars, build new railways, etc. They’re not interested in the past so much…”
Secondly, while Marina is on maternity leave, I’m putting together a series of special advanced Spanish pocasts with our friend Isabel (who is currently helping with everyone’s written Spanish in the forum).
We are planning to make a recording about how the Spanish would never be seen dead wearing second-hand clothes from a charity shop, something that is both common and seen as perfectly acceptable in the UK in most social groups.
I’d love some input on this. Why do the Spanish run from the old and embrace the new? Why are there no second hand/charity shops in Spain? Will all this change as the ‘crisis’ (set to get worse in 2009) means that out-and-out mad mass consumerism has to calm down, and people might have to reconsider their views on the merits of buying second-hand?
Your thoughts would be much appreciated.
Alison B
21 Jan 09 at 4:52 pm
What an interesting topic! I am looking forward to hearing about that.
Anwar
21 Jan 09 at 5:08 pm
Hi, Ben. I’m looking forward to the advanced podcasts and hearing more from Isabel. By the way, it’s also common in the United States for people to buy second hand clothing from thrift shops, consignment shops, and places like Goodwill.
Pepino
21 Jan 09 at 5:12 pm
I´m really surprised by the comment about the Spanish not wanting to be seen dead in second hand clothes. Every day (in Barcelona at least) people dump bags of old clothes next to the street bins and there are always people (not always tramps either, just regular people) rummaging through and holding things up to the light deciding what to take with them. I guess this kind of “make do” approach will gradually die out, as younger people don´t seem to have this attitude, but for the moment, it´s alive and well around these parts!
jules
21 Jan 09 at 6:37 pm
Perhaps no charity/second-hand shops but there are many more street markets (& of course the Rastro), where all sorts of second hand stuff (as well as new) including clothing is traded. No lack of young people using them: in fact complete families are often seen.
BrianA
21 Jan 09 at 8:08 pm
@Jules – I’d agree with you. The piles of clothing from 1€ upwards on our local market always have a crowd round them. Not sure where all the furniture etc. goes although round this part of Spain we have a lot of expat second hand shops that also attract Spanish buyers.
Emily
21 Jan 09 at 8:49 pm
I’m always relating things to franquismo and my Spanish friends laugh at me, but it would be interesting to see how other wealthy countries with dark recent pasts deal with history in little ways–like antiques and second-hand clothes and so on.
Funny about the people checking out dumpster clothes in Barcelona. I guess the stereotype about the pijo cordobeses must be true, since the only people I ever saw dumpster diving were gitanos and people made their disapproval of them and their habits VERY well known.
I’m with the above poster–where does all of the stuff GO? When those dark wood granny apartments get replaced with new sleekness…where does the old stuff migrate? Directly to the garbage?
Colin
22 Jan 09 at 12:21 am
Ben,
It’s a common feature of countries which have got relatively rich relatively quickly, I believe.
gary
22 Jan 09 at 1:28 am
I agree with Pepino – I spend three or four weeks a year in BCN and it is a common sight to see folk rummaging through clothes or carrying off pieces of cast off furniture, mind that is in Raval not in Gracia…
AndrewW
22 Jan 09 at 2:25 am
“…wearing second-hand clothes from a charity shop, something that is both common and seen as perfectly acceptable in the UK in most social groups.”
Ben I think you need to visit a Primark next time you’re in the UK!
Only my hippy Dad finds charity shop attire acceptable.
ValenciaSon
22 Jan 09 at 5:00 am
It’s human nature. When you’re relatively young and wealthy, and you’re peaking in the Marcha zone, the sky’s the limit, until the party starts to fade and reality sets in.
cardamom
22 Jan 09 at 6:29 am
Here in the US, unless you live in upscale neighborhoods in LA or NYC where rich kids throw out their unused/ used (after once or twice) clothes or shoes, not everyone shops at Goodwill or Salvation Army thrift stores. Of course, its cheaper now to get new stuff at the Mall with all the deep discounts offered.
I did see on TV, a woman from Arkansas shopping for her kids at the thrift store. Of course she had 18 children!
ryan
22 Jan 09 at 10:52 am
the second hand shop is at our dumpster. We now own free of charge a nice dining room table, office desk, lounge chair, bookshelf, rooftop table, various vases, glass table for glassware and much more. Though no clothes as of yet.
Pepino
22 Jan 09 at 4:37 pm
As for the old furniture, last week I helped a friend bring the most knackered, grease-covered, putrid set of 1960´s kitchen cupboards down from the attic flat she´s recently bought to the street with the intention of leaving them for the bin men to collect that night…..
… however, they barely touched the floor before blokes in vans were pulling up to take them away! Unbelieveable given the state they was in. The metal bits I could understand having a value, but no amount of “Don Limpio” polish could´ve restored those old wooden cupboards to their former…. errr… “glory”!
Pepino
22 Jan 09 at 4:40 pm
Ryan´s right though that, putrid kitchens aside, you do often get some real gems left by the bins. A friend of mine found a fab retro mirror and a wall cabinet recently.
Basically, if you can carry it, it´s yours!
Anonimo Spaniard
22 Jan 09 at 4:52 pm
La verdad es que os equivocais todos. Este gusto por lo nuevo, lo último, por aparentar es producto unicamente de nuestra cultura greco-romana. La romanización de la peninsula fue tan fuerte que si os fijais el Italiano y el español son una evolución parecidisima del latín a pesar de tener a francia en medio. De hecho italianos y españoles son los que mejor se visten del mundo y los pueblos que mayores avances han dado a la humanidad en cuestiones esteticas, sobre todo los italianos cuya industria del diseño es la mejor que existe sobre la faz de la tierra, desde coches a ropa, muebles. Un español no es más que un romano en el siglo XXI y ha de comportarse como un tal y aparentar que es el más guapo, el más listo y el más rico aunque no sea cierto. es común ver a gente que se ha comprado un BMW último modelo aunque luego tenga dificultades economicas para pagar su hipoteca o su alquiler. Un finlandés por ejemplo y si estuviera en el mismo caso se compraria un Ford fiesta y no pasaría penurias economicas. Somos así, está en nuestra sangre.
bill (Legazpi)
22 Jan 09 at 8:26 pm
I’m not convinced the second hand scene in Madrid is anywhere near as big as that in the UK. Of course you get the odd rummager in Madrid, but there simply aren’t that many second hand shops, car boot sales, old bric-a-brac, etc. When I lived in the UK I could easily furnish my house with reconditioned appliances, furniture, etc from a range of shops that were well within walking distance.
In Spain I think many old clothes that don’t get thrown away end up being given to the local church instead.
Edith
22 Jan 09 at 9:01 pm
In Holland, buying second-hand clothes is not really popular and I guess most people who do buy them are on a very tight budget. There aren’t that many second-hand clothing shops, anyway. Second-hand furniture stores (called ‘recycling centers’) are far more popular, but they, too, get frequented mostly by people on a tight budget. Even though we have a certain reputation for being spendthrifts, the Dutch seem to prefer new things. People often prefer to buy cheap-quality stuff rather than hand-me-downs. Stores like Zeeman and Wibra, which sell very cheap clothes, are popular among those who have to watch their budget.
Bella
23 Jan 09 at 2:38 am
There is an Oxfam shop in Madrid!
Ben
23 Jan 09 at 11:29 am
Thanks for the comments, all these will be used in the podcast. I love the furniture thing. Whenever we want to get rid of furniture we just leave it in the street outside our building door – it’s usually gone in 5 minutes!
Parubin
23 Jan 09 at 11:51 am
@ Ben :
I think Madrid’s Ayuntamiento has to be the same as most of town halls in Spain. When you have to get rid of an old piece of furniture, fridge or the like you call them and they take it away. They have a special service for this. You’ll get fined if caught just leaving it outside, but then again if some misterious stranger instantaniouslly does the job you’ll be allright.
@ Bill :
You’re right. Secondhandship (just made this word up, does it make any sense??) in Spain is nowhere as big as in the UK or Ireland. We don´t have anything like the Yard-Sales that are so popular in the US either. Old clothing, and second hand toys, etc… usually go to the church or some charity ngo. For a tight budget we already have Zara and Ikea (the latter happens to be quite expensive actually as most of the stuff comes apart like rubbish, shelves are alright though…).
Edith
23 Jan 09 at 1:09 pm
RE Ben furniture: the same is true in Holland. Leave it outside your door and it’ll be gone very soon.
Nicole
23 Jan 09 at 2:15 pm
So I think, every nation has its own looks on life and habits, so Spanish like to looks into the future, but sometimes it is not bad to look into the past and remember some good moments or just remember our mistakes and try not to repeat them in the future.
bill (Legazpi)
23 Jan 09 at 3:57 pm
It’s beginning to look like Spain’s love of the new is shared with many countries, and maybe it’s the UK that is unusual in its love of the old!
catalan gardener
23 Jan 09 at 5:08 pm
I have to say I miss charity shops desperately but we, like Ryan, do have a successful collection of furniture and bric-a-brac from the local dumping ground. Anything wooden in our village is dumped in one place for burning (probably not strictly correct thing to do). It means we’ve got an ever increasing collection of rurual ‘antique’ chairs, benches, baskets etc and even manage to pick up plenty of firewood (old beams etc) which the locals won’t use since olive and almond is so much better. I say if its free its alright for us!
Tom
23 Jan 09 at 7:13 pm
I’m not sure about this ‘love of the new’. Spain often feels like a country with strong feelings about the past, but lacking the courage to confront them.
As to the quote itself – new flats? well, probably better than the 1960s ones, like ours, which were built in about five minutes and lack any form of insulation or charm. New cars? Yes, absolutely – but I see this in Australia and other countries I visit too. I think the Brits are far more savvy when it comes to 2nd hand cars. New trains – well have you tried the old ones?! Investment in decent infrastructure is something this country needs more of. We’ve still got the most expensive, slowest Internet in Europe.
Colin’s point about recently acquired wealth is also probably right: Spaniards have learnt quickly that they should be consumers and most of them (at least the ones I know) adore shopping more than practically anything else.
I guess there is something of an aversion to the old here, but I reckon it’s got more to do with ‘rejecting’ the past than hating used things. As the years roll on, places like Mercantic near me will flourish.
Ben
23 Jan 09 at 7:19 pm
@”We’ve still got the most expensive, slowest Internet in Europe.” – are you sure? I thought UK prices were higher for a decent 20mb connection… but I’m probably wrong!
Tom
23 Jan 09 at 8:03 pm
@Ben – I read in a newspaper, so it must be true!!
A decent 20mb connection? (adopts voice from the Life Of Brian) Oooh what I wouldn’t give for one of them! I work for a big Spanish website and our office connection is 20mb. Home should be 8mb but never gets above about 4.
Ben
23 Jan 09 at 8:15 pm
@Tom, we are near one of the ‘nodes’ or whatever you call them, so our jazztel connection can be up to 15mb down I think. For 30 euros a month. Good enough!
RayTibbitts
25 Jan 09 at 11:12 pm
My wife is from one of those circles of Spaniards that aren’t shy about expressing their derision for the ‘Un-presentable’
It kind of seems to be a part of having a role to play, and looking the part, or else you will be taken for something Less.
You ARE what others take you for, and if you can’t hack it, you only get what you deserve, but if you can use others’ perception of you to your advantage, you have then shown what you’re worth.
It’s beyond me, though. Too much of a paradox for me. To much of: ‘see what you can get out of each situation, milk the system for all it’s worth” and YET: ‘make sure you look like you are above it all, beyond the system, not dependent on it.’
Only about half the people I have contact with actually buy into this, though, so I don’t see it as a particularly “Spanish” thing.
I’m very close, geographically to my ‘node’ as well, (As are most people in Spain) yet the quality of the old copper lines just can’t get even a quarter of the bandwidth to me, in the building I’m in. Still, I’m hooked, so it’s not like I’m going to do without, just pay for the cheapest I can get.
Laurie
8 Feb 09 at 8:45 pm
We´re opening a second hand shop in Valdemoro, (Madrid) c/Gregorio Marañon 23 sometime this month. We hope you come buy lots of things!!